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post #1 of 17 Old 07-30-2018, 05:02 PM Thread Starter
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Talking new member 04 xb

My xb i converted it to run on propane and gas. I'm going to hook up the air ride again
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post #2 of 17 Old 07-30-2018, 06:09 PM
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Re: new member 04 xb

First time I have seen this, what are the pros of having propane ran to your engine, I know the cons are, "kaboom" .....lol

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post #3 of 17 Old 07-30-2018, 06:40 PM
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Re: new member 04 xb

Welcome to the site. That is a fascinating dual fuel conversion. Lots of curiosity and questions about it:

Single or dual intake manifold for the propane injectors and gasoline injectors?
What amount pressure for the propane fuel injectors and lines used?
Is the boosted pressure regulation for the propane injectors separate or in the ECM?
What size propane tank and where does it mount?
If the tank is inside, how is it shielded and how does the pressure safety valve vent to the outside of the xB?
Did the PCM programming come with a kit and loading device for the CAN connector, or did it have to be made custom?
Were the engine intake and exhaust valves switched to ones requiring less lubricity?
Where does the filler neck and port mount?
What programming converts the gas vapor to a liquid equivalent for the fuel gauge reading?
Where does the high pressure propane filter mount?
Is the OEM catalytic convertor removed?
Is the vapor recovery for gasoline removed?
What distance driving range on a tank of propane?
What heat range spark plugs used?
What MPG?
Any state or federal tax credit, or incentives, for the conversion?

Always wondered about this conversion for an xB. Please post pictures of the conversion process and equipment needed. Thanks in advance.
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post #4 of 17 Old 07-30-2018, 07:05 PM
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Re: new member 04 xb

Welcome to da club !!! Never seen this in an XB yet but I hear they burn cleaner !!!!
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post #5 of 17 Old 07-30-2018, 11:11 PM
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Re: new member 04 xb

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Originally Posted by se-r_dad View Post
First time I have seen this, what are the pros of having propane ran to your engine, I know the cons are, "kaboom" .....lol

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Hella gas mileage and burns cleaner

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post #6 of 17 Old 07-31-2018, 08:05 AM
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Re: new member 04 xb

Propane burns cleaner than gasoline, and Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) burns even cleaner. Clean enough to qualify for a HOV lane sticker and access in California. Both fuels provide less miles per tankful than the equivalent gasoline due to less energy produced. But offset by the cheap price of fuel, they are a cost savings. Usually $.35 to $.50 cheaper per gallon equivalent. Also, the federal government gave a $.50 per gallon tax credit to encourage using alternate fuels, but that probably has expired. Takes a few years to recoup the investment.

CNG is definitely safer than gasoline: evaporates quickly; does not pool on the ground if leaked; has to meet a specific range of combustion before it will ignite; and is non-toxic. Maxes out with about 4,200 PSI in the tank on a hot day, versus about 300 PSI for Propane. Around five below zero a block heater is appreciated.

96 percent of the natural gas used in the USA is produced here from Methane. Also is renewable as it is produced by landfill dumps. Both fuels have a limited number of available stations; but those are increasing.

The xB converted to propane fuel is impressive. Looking forward to the details.
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post #7 of 17 Old 07-31-2018, 02:59 PM
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Re: new member 04 xb

Sounds like an interesting concept. We know our engines can last 300k plus on gasoline. How long on LP or CNG?
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post #8 of 17 Old 07-31-2018, 06:49 PM
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Re: new member 04 xb

I do not know about Propane, only about CNG. Due to the reduced lubricity of natural gas the intake and exhaust valves can wear out much faster than when using gasoline. Engines which normally could go a service life of 160,000 miles without grinding or replacing valves, were wearing out at 75,000 to 100,000 miles and at eight years old. The valves and the seats were wearing out quickly; the rest of the engine was fine. Obviously, the amount of engine run time is an important wear factor as is idling time.

Any conversion should include the hardened valves, like comes on an OEM version for CNG vehicles.

Just like in the early 1970's when lead was removed from gasoline and lots of engines wore out the valves prematurely. Finally, the OEM's put in hardened valves. Those valves still were not strong enough for the CNG versions.

Hoping to get details about the Propane conversion xB. From the original post, it appears to be bi-fuel, which has a whole other set of challenges, particularity the engine electronic parameters so different from gasoline.
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post #9 of 17 Old 08-01-2018, 05:09 AM Thread Starter
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Re: new member 04 xb

it is a dual fuel. multiport fuel injection. it has its own pcmfor lp and wires up to the obdII. all the programing is done on windows pc. The Lp tank is a forklift tank. pressure relief and safety releif is plumbed outside the car. The intake manifold is stock with brass ferrels tapped into the plastic. The system changes fuel on the fly or automatic. when propane runs out,or selectable by rpm's or mph. high rpm's tend to burn out valves. There is a bottle of lpg fluid drip to help save the valves. ( im working on that now) the conersion Is 2 weeks old now. Runs great , never had lean backfires. I'll try to post up more info later. It seems like there is a ton of questions. Ive been doing lp systems on forklift trucks for 13 years now.It helped me with parts and understanding how the system works.
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post #10 of 17 Old 08-01-2018, 07:21 AM
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Re: new member 04 xb

Have to say that your knowledge of LP systems helps !! My neighbor years ago had an old checker car that ran on both LP and gas !! To my knowledge he never had issues with the engine !!!
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post #11 of 17 Old 08-01-2018, 08:12 PM Thread Starter
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Re: new member 04 xb

sometime this weekend when i have a few minutes ,I will get detailed info about the system and how it works.
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post #12 of 17 Old 09-08-2018, 04:39 PM Thread Starter
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Re: new member 04 xb

I haven done much lately to the lp conversion. I can say that the box runs better on propane. It has more power and the engine runs cleaner. I ran cermalube through the engine . Now I'm going to change the oil over to cermalube. More about the system , it is a KME pcm, A nortic reducer,and westport omvl propane injectors. whats cool is you can plug it into your pc and program all kinds of stuff,and you can also run diagnostic on the lp system and on the box as well. I keep getting trouble codes as i have been for 5 years now. i have the evap small leak detected code and its probably the charcoal canister . I checked the vaccum valve solenoid under the hood and it works. What sucks is that yes i can clear the code with my tablet on the fly , but it sucks showing off my handy work and people ask me why is my check engine light on thats something i need to fix. oh cermalube oil goes 20,000 miles. I got a good deal on a 5 gallon bucket of it.

---------- Post added 09-08-2018 at 03:00 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myopic View Post
Propane burns cleaner than gasoline, and Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) burns even cleaner. Clean enough to qualify for a HOV lane sticker and access in California. Both fuels provide less miles per tankful than the equivalent gasoline due to less energy produced. But offset by the cheap price of fuel, they are a cost savings. Usually $.35 to $.50 cheaper per gallon equivalent. Also, the federal government gave a $.50 per gallon tax credit to encourage using alternate fuels, but that probably has expired. Takes a few years to recoup the investment.

CNG is definitely safer than gasoline: evaporates quickly; does not pool on the ground if leaked; has to meet a specific range of combustion before it will ignite; and is non-toxic. Maxes out with about 4,200 PSI in the tank on a hot day, versus about 300 PSI for Propane. Around five below zero a block heater is appreciated.

96 percent of the natural gas used in the USA is produced here from Methane. Also is renewable as it is produced by landfill dumps. Both fuels have a limited number of available stations; but those are increasing.

The xB converted to propane fuel is impressive. Looking forward to the details.
25 miles to the gallon is what im getting on lpg. spark plugs are 1 heat range hotter. there is a fuel gauge in the car for the lp. bypassed it cause forklift tank senders are expensive. to bypass it i used a pressure switch and a 90 ohm resistor. It tricks the computer to think it has a gauge, when the pressure drops cause the tank is empty the switch closes and it switches back over to gas. you can hardly tell when it switches. you can though the engine changes its tone a bit. the vapor pressure is about 17 psi if i got the conversion right. The valves are stock, and since i drive like a grandma they will probably be fine. Right now its set to switch back to gas when the rpm is at 3,000 So once i hit 80 mph on the highway it goes back to gas. I found with forklifts that have valve guides go bad are mostly ones that are hammered on, high rev and no governor. running the cermalube through my gas tank should have coated my valves with ceramic, i hope. but i also have lpg valve lube. Its a slow drip into the intake manifold. thats what they use in europe for lpg and cng.
The tank is probably not legal to be mounted in my trunk, its only a 33lb dot tank, but there isnt much in ct to have a asme tank mounted under the car. Filling stations are far away for auto gas cars, and this whole conversion was less than 500 dollars. its like 1,500 for a autogas tank.

---------- Post added 09-08-2018 at 03:04 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by dubeexb06 View Post
Have to say that your knowledge of LP systems helps !! My neighbor years ago had an old checker car that ran on both LP and gas !! To my knowledge he never had issues with the engine !!!
They can have issues burning out valves

---------- Post added 09-08-2018 at 03:08 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myopic View Post
I do not know about Propane, only about CNG. Due to the reduced lubricity of natural gas the intake and exhaust valves can wear out much faster than when using gasoline. Engines which normally could go a service life of 160,000 miles without grinding or replacing valves, were wearing out at 75,000 to 100,000 miles and at eight years old. The valves and the seats were wearing out quickly; the rest of the engine was fine. Obviously, the amount of engine run time is an important wear factor as is idling time.

Any conversion should include the hardened valves, like comes on an OEM version for CNG vehicles.

Just like in the early 1970's when lead was removed from gasoline and lots of engines wore out the valves prematurely. Finally, the OEM's put in hardened valves. Those valves still were not strong enough for the CNG versions.

Hoping to get details about the Propane conversion xB. From the original post, it appears to be bi-fuel, which has a whole other set of challenges, particularity the engine electronic parameters so different from gasoline.
I will keep you posted on how my valves are in a year or so. I guess were going to find out how hard the valves and seats are in a 1nzfe engine If i mess up the valves, then a whole new topic to rebuild a head will get generated

---------- Post added 09-08-2018 at 03:09 PM ----------

Quote:
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Hella gas mileage and burns cleaner

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burns clean gas miles is only 25 mpg

---------- Post added 09-08-2018 at 03:15 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by wagonbldr View Post
Sounds like an interesting concept. We know our engines can last 300k plus on gasoline. How long on LP or CNG?
Im at 194,500 or so . Ive been thinking about buying a spare engine. 300k really? I bought my box at like 120k only simple problems so far. starter, battery,and brakes so far. it wouldnt hurt to have an extra engine , just cause i might scatter this one running on lp LOL
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post #13 of 17 Old 09-08-2018, 05:22 PM Thread Starter
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Re: new member 04 xb

Quote:
Originally Posted by se-r_dad View Post
First time I have seen this, what are the pros of having propane ran to your engine, I know the cons are, "kaboom" .....lol

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I might sound strange but i think that a Lp tank is alot safer than a gas tank. they are more rigid and can withstand a much greater impact than your gas tank in anyones car the pros of the propane is just that the fuel burns cleaner and its 2.30 gal at tractor supply . I should be only running on hd5 propane, but honetly its just for bragging rights. i needed a project to work on

---------- Post added 09-08-2018 at 03:33 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myopic View Post
Welcome to the site. That is a fascinating dual fuel conversion. Lots of curiosity and questions about it:

Single or dual intake manifold for the propane injectors and gasoline injectors?
What amount pressure for the propane fuel injectors and lines used?
Is the boosted pressure regulation for the propane injectors separate or in the ECM?
What size propane tank and where does it mount?
If the tank is inside, how is it shielded and how does the pressure safety valve vent to the outside of the xB?
Did the PCM programming come with a kit and loading device for the CAN connector, or did it have to be made custom?
Were the engine intake and exhaust valves switched to ones requiring less lubricity?
Where does the filler neck and port mount?
What programming converts the gas vapor to a liquid equivalent for the fuel gauge reading?
Where does the high pressure propane filter mount?
Is the OEM catalytic convertor removed?
Is the vapor recovery for gasoline removed?
What distance driving range on a tank of propane?
What heat range spark plugs used?
What MPG?
Any state or federal tax credit, or incentives, for the conversion?

Always wondered about this conversion for an xB. Please post pictures of the conversion process and equipment needed. Thanks in advance.
The car has the stock manifold,and the catalist. i have no idea about incentives. Im afraid to tell any offical about it. it's probably not street legal. The tank has 2 vents outside the car. one is tank pressure relief, and the other is line pressure relief. none of the oem parts are removed at all. 25mpg. the high pressure filter is inside the nortic reducer. the nortic reducer uses the heater core hose to convert to vapor. my propane tank is mounted to my back seat, welded brackets in the trunk area.

---------- Post added 09-08-2018 at 03:35 PM ----------

My box does run awesome on LPG

---------- Post added 09-08-2018 at 03:41 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by dubeexb06 View Post
Welcome to da club !!! Never seen this in an XB yet but I hear they burn cleaner !!!!
Im not sure that i ever seen a xb running on lpg . Thats why I did it its very hard to get any info about converting one and i think i might be one of the first !
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post #14 of 17 Old 10-21-2018, 09:08 PM Thread Starter
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Re: new member 04 xb

So the scion is getting about 30 mpg lpg. Im only saving 10 dollars a week.
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post #15 of 17 Old 10-22-2018, 07:55 AM
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Re: new member 04 xb

Ten dollars a week is not bad but me thinks in the long run you will save more money on other thing too !!!
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post #16 of 17 Old 10-13-2019, 09:03 PM Thread Starter
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Re: new member 04 xb

well what i did is fine propane for 1.70 a gallon. the car runs great after 2 years . id say convert it. im saving a **** ton of money. no engine problems.
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post #17 of 17 Old 10-13-2019, 09:06 PM
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Good to hear it's working out well.

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