N/A Options

Calesta · 04-19-2009, 03:46 PM

Ok, so they're not adjustable with a variable length nut/bolt setup? That's what I'm used to on the Honda heads.

PCH · 04-19-2009, 04:54 PM

Totally different set-up from Hondas. And i think dealer is the only option for lifters. In the Scion repair manual they list about 20 different heights the lifters are made in.

crxgames · 04-19-2009, 08:18 PM

A note on Camcon: There was an xA in siphon that ran one and claimed something like 5-10hp more. I'll dig out the magazine when I get home (I'm in Atlanta) and try to post up the specs that are in the article.

rton20s · 04-19-2009, 10:11 PM

I should stay away from the forums for a couple days a bit more often. Great to see some real input in this thread. And a chance to learn a thing or two at the same time. Thanks to everyone for the great contributions.

crxgames · 04-20-2009, 07:47 PM

Well, I'm only one issue into siphon (#6), but I'll post some specs from this NA build.

ITB's,
13:1compression
Titanium valve springs
295 intake/285 exhaust cam
SARD 327cc injectors
Bosch 200 liter per hour fuel pump
G-Force 4-2-1 header
2.5" muffler/piping
SS-Crazy computer
200hp @ 6500rpm and 144 lb-ft of torque at 4,900rpm
G-Force final drive and close ratio gears

That's the build ‘åãEÛ’Ã - RACING FACTRY F G-FORCEiƒW[ƒtƒH[ƒXj did if anyone wants to research more.

Correction, that's issue #5 of siphon.

The car that I was referring to was the TEIN yaris cup car.
"Chase was so dedicated to winning that he installed a Power Enterprise CAMCON II piggyback unit, which has been custom dyno-tuned by K&N's Nestor Cabrera. The final result of all this work is a tuned yaris that lays down a 106.1whp and 104.3lb/ft of torque on K&N's Dynojet dynamometer. On 91-octane , no less. Considering a stock Yaris is rated to put out a106hp and 103lb-ft at the crank, these are impressive numbers indeed."

The article about the car is in Siphon Issue #2 for those looking to further research the car.

So perhaps someone should talk to this Nestor guy a bit?

Calesta · 04-20-2009, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PCH

Totally different set-up from Hondas. And i think dealer is the only option for lifters. In the Scion repair manual they list about 20 different heights the lifters are made in.

Ouch. Time to rip into one. If I can get a complete block for $250 like someone else around here did, I just might go grab one and start playing. I just have to clear all the other engines out of the garage first...

Quote:

Originally Posted by crxgames

A note on Camcon: There was an xA in siphon that ran one and claimed something like 5-10hp more. I'll dig out the magazine when I get home (I'm in Atlanta) and try to post up the specs that are in the article.

I'm not surprised. If you tune out a lot of the safety margin from the factory and go with higher octane gas, you can usually pull another 10% or so out of a totally stock engine. Playing with cam overlap to shift the power curve up will raise your power numbers too, but at the expense of low end response... which you don't really care too much about at the race track anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rton20s

I should stay away from the forums for a couple days a bit more often. Great to see some real input in this thread. And a chance to learn a thing or two at the same time. Thanks to everyone for the great contributions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crxgames

Well, I'm only one issue into siphon (#6), but I'll post some specs from this NA build.

ITB's,
13:1compression
Titanium valve springs
295 intake/285 exhaust cam
SARD 327cc injectors
Bosch 200 liter per hour fuel pump
G-Force 4-2-1 header
2.5" muffler/piping
SS-Crazy computer
200hp @ 6500rpm and 144 lb-ft of torque at 4,900rpm
G-Force final drive and close ratio gears

That's the build ‘åãEÛ’Ã - RACING FACTRY F G-FORCEiƒW[ƒtƒH[ƒXj did if anyone wants to research more.

Correction, that's issue #5 of siphon.

The car that I was referring to was the TEIN yaris cup car.
"Chase was so dedicated to winning that he installed a Power Enterprise CAMCON II piggyback unit, which has been custom dyno-tuned by K&N's Nestor Cabrera. The final result of all this work is a tuned yaris that lays down a 106.1whp and 104.3lb/ft of torque on K&N's Dynojet dynamometer. On 91-octane , no less. Considering a stock Yaris is rated to put out a106hp and 103lb-ft at the crank, these are impressive numbers indeed."

The article about the car is in Siphon Issue #2 for those looking to further research the car.

So perhaps someone should talk to this Nestor guy a bit?

Nice. I like the 13:1 compression on that first build.

As far as talking to Nestor, reference my first response in this post. Still impressive though.

rton20s · 04-21-2009, 04:10 PM

I remember that issue of Siphon with the Yaris. Unfortunately, I haven't purchased many issues since (out of production now, isn't it?). And the issues I do have are boxed up away in the attic since our move in November. Any chance you could scan the Siphon articles you reference and post them up somewhere?

It would be interesting to see the results of the custom tune on the cam-con over time. As stated before there have been mixed "results" using this controller. Many claim that our ecu is smart enough to accommodate for the changes the camcon makes and revert the changes back to stock.

For Calesta...

The CamCon actually lets you make both cam timing and fuel trim adjustments in 500 rpm increments. The cam timing can be adjusted +/- 20 degrees every 500 rpm from 2000 - 9000 rpm. The fuel trim can be adjust -10% to +20% in 500 rpm increments from 1000 rpm to 9000 rpm. (Not that our cars will ever get anywhere near 9000 rpm. So by this, I take it that you might be able to maintain your low end response and gain the top end power numbers all of us are seeking. Again, if the tune will actually stick and not be over-ridden by the stock ecu.

Also, as I mentioned before, there might just be an inexpensive option for a high compression engine short of ordering all new rods and pistons. That is to utilize the 1NZ-FXE (Prius) bottom end with our head and cams. There are a couple of drawbacks though. One, no one has tried it to see if it will even physically work (valve interference, timing, etc.) The other is that even if it physically functions, how long will it last?

If you are looking for cheap engines, try Car-Part.com--Used Auto Parts Market

Keep it coming guys. This seriously has me wanting to order up an F/IC and a CamCon just to see what you can do with a stock engine with typical bolt-ons. That's quite a bit of coin to fork out on an unknown though, especially having just moved into our first home.

crxgames · 04-21-2009, 04:19 PM

Quote:

It would be interesting to see the results of the custom tune on the cam-con over time. As stated before there have been mixed "results" using this controller. Many claim that our ecu is smart enough to accommodate for the changes the camcon makes and revert the changes back to stock.

Well, our ECU cycles are like 50 miles iirc. So if it doesn't throw any codes or make any adjustments after 50 miles, we should be good. (This should be verified with a Toyota manual, the 50 mile cycle is random forum info I've picked up somewhere.)

I'll try to get you a scan of it within the next few days.

Edit: I also got my 1zz throttle body in. I'll post up pics later tonight. I'm going to first try to get it working with a traditional throttle cable then deal with making it bolt up.

rton20s · 04-21-2009, 04:37 PM

Sounds good. If you need a custom spacer made, you might try hitting up EZ Baked. It should be pretty easy for him to make a narrow spacer with countersunk bolts to adapt the larger throttle body to the stock manifold.

PCH · 04-21-2009, 04:51 PM

Trying to change timing avdance curve is my main interest. What is the best unit to do it with?

Advance. LOL. I want my edit button back!!!

rton20s · 04-21-2009, 06:23 PM

Yeah... this no edit button BS is ridiculous. Who do we have to talk to in order to get a dang edit button on here?!

As far as advancing ignition timing, right now you are out of luck as far as I know. At least for piggy backs. The only ones I am not sure about are e-manage (basic) from Greddy or the F-Con from HKS. The CamCon does not adjust ignition timing. It only adjusts cam timing and fuel trim. The AEM F/IC adjusts fuel trim and can retard ignition timing, but not advance it. I have heard rumors that the F/IC should be capable of advancing ignition timing, but AEM has not released software to do so. How true this is, I am not sure.

On the e-manage, I can't find straight information anywhere online about what the capabilities are. I know it can adjust fuel trim like the other two, and that there is an available ignition harness. I can't find a definitive answer though as to whether or not it can advance ignition timing, or just retard it. I know the e-manage ultimate has the ability to do both.

At this point, your best bet is probably contacting each manufacturer directly to find out the capabilities of each of the piggy-back units. I know that the Apexi units can only control fuel trim.

I did a quick little bit of digging on the HKS F-Con and it appears that this one may allow for timing advance. +/- 15 degrees according to some sites. The drawbacks? Significantly higher investment, not nearly as tested on our cars, and a pretty long lead time from Japan from what I could tell.

PCH · 04-21-2009, 08:46 PM

Man, thanks for all the info!
Ignition timing is very conservative on all the cars now due to emission regulations. They do that to bring NOx and HC as low as they can.
On my xB timing can be as high as 38 degrees @ light cruise, but once you load the engine it immediately drops to about 18-20. I tried changing between 89 and 91 gas and it makes no difference, so i think it's not because the knock sensor makes it retard under load- gotta be the advance map programmed into ECM. I'm pretty sure the engine would get more pep with few extra degrees.

Calesta · 04-21-2009, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rton20s

The CamCon actually lets you make both cam timing and fuel trim adjustments in 500 rpm increments. The cam timing can be adjusted +/- 20 degrees every 500 rpm from 2000 - 9000 rpm. The fuel trim can be adjust -10% to +20% in 500 rpm increments from 1000 rpm to 9000 rpm. (Not that our cars will ever get anywhere near 9000 rpm. So by this, I take it that you might be able to maintain your low end response and gain the top end power numbers all of us are seeking.

Gotcha. So like an SAFC with cam timing adjustments / sensor cheating built in.

I don't know how much the FIC and the CamCon cost together, but wouldn't you be creeping in on an AEM EMS? I don't know if there's one already set up for the xB, but it would be a much better system than two piggybacks.

rton20s · 04-22-2009, 02:44 AM

CamCon and F/IC combined would probably run about $750 to your door. As far as I know AEM doesn't have a full plug and play EMS for our car. And their universal system can run you upwards of $2k! Shoot, you could get the much more expensive F-Con from HKS along with the CamCon for a little over a grand and apparently have control over fuel trim, ignition timing and cam timing.

crxgames · 04-22-2009, 06:36 PM

Well, I have a 1zz throttle body for sale if anyone wants it. Upon further research, the 03 1zz TB has the same bolt pattern as our's and is cable, not drive by wire. It should make the swap a lot easier...

The sensors are suppose to be the same as those of the 1nz tb (same part #'s). I'll update as soon as I locate one and order it.

rton20s · 04-22-2009, 07:19 PM

Try heading over to one of the Yaris forums to unload it. Those guys can actually use the throttle body you bought.

And it looks like you are right about which throttle body may be compatible. Found the ID# and they can be had pretty cheaply, I may just go ahead and order one. If it is a bolt on affair, what is the worts that can happen!

crxgames · 04-22-2009, 07:27 PM

If you want to save your money, go ahead and wait. I am definitely doing this for sure. Already writing a thread to unload the current TB I have too.

Can you post up the ID #'s?

This thread has some side-by-side pics of the two tb's:
ScionLife View topic - 1zz throttle body swap, work in progress (with pics)

rton20s · 04-23-2009, 01:46 AM

If I am not mistaken the throttle body from the older Corolla with ID# 0D010.

I am not 100%, but I do think that this would be the correct replacement. I also don't know what the differerence is in the bore. Also, keep in mind that with these older throttle bodies that if you can find one cheap, it will definitely need some clean up and possibly some work to make it function properly.

crxgames · 04-23-2009, 05:21 PM

Here is some info about an older echo ECU swapped into an xb. W/e model he used is not learning like the xB one, so mods may be easier since it can't fight the piggy back.

ScionLife View topic - just installed an echo ecu...

gothbox · 04-23-2009, 10:17 PM

what about just a simple port and polish on the TB? maybe even bore it out a little.

most of this talk in this thread is above my head but I am trying to sort it all out and learn this non American motor talk.

been talking with this guy a little as well, he said he has only done one xB long time ago but never heard back from guy about it to see how it did improvement wise.
Maxbore.com throttle body boring service